Len Mackey (00:00):

Down in New Jersey at the tracker school in the pine barrens on where I first started studying primitive skills with Tom Brown Jr. And so we're here this last few days was the Keeper's gathering. So it's group of folks that have been going to tracker for a long time. Some decades. We do a lot of really cool old scout training.

Liz Hart (00:31):

Hello and welcome everyone to our first official podcast, installment of north country voices. If you've been a Nature Up North fan for a while, or just joining us we had a Just Our Nature blog series highlighting North Country community members. We're excited to start a podcast following the same vein. I was fortunate enough to interview Len Mackey. As you might have been able to tell Len was out in the woods of New Jersey for the entirety of our interview, so forgive any crackling on his end. That being said, my name is Liz Hart and I'm one of the summer interns at Nature Up North. I would like to thank you all for joining me and I hope you enjoy. Hello everyone. Thank you so much for joining us on North Country Voices today, I'm joined with Len Mackey. Len is a multi-talented community member and owner and operator of Ancient Earth Skills Wellness and Wilderness Training Center and Song of the Spheres Incorporated. Len provides many services to the north country community, including, but not limited to survival skills workshops, West African drumming and dance classes, yoga meditation, and more. Thank you again for joining me.

Len Mackey (01:53):

Yes, it's my pleasure. Yeah, I figure, you know, there Renaissance man, or I just have ADD <laugh>

Liz Hart (02:02):

That's perfect. So my first question for you is an easy one. What is your favorite place in the North Country? Would you say?

Len Mackey (02:12):

My favorite place is probably pretty much where I live right now, just outside of Canton, right along the Little River, right at the base of Waterman Hill . So it's a beautiful transition area between fields and the forest. And it's just a slice of paradise as far as I can tell.

Liz Hart (02:35):

Yeah. A little bit of everything, that sounds perfect. So I know I just kind of gave you that introduction, but would you mind just telling us a little more about what you do in general?

Len Mackey (02:48):

Sure. Um, well, I actually grew up in the North Country. My dad was kind of a reincarnated mountain man. So, you know, I grew up hunting and fishing and trapping and doing all that stuff. And you know, it really stuck with me. You know, I went away to school to study photography at RIT in Rochester, but my heart always called me back home. And, um, yeah, I do, uh, all kinds of stuff.

Liz Hart (03:21):

This is the first point in the interview where we begin to lose each other, but here Len is just saying that he is absolutely in love with ancient skills.

Len Mackey (03:32):

You know, the world over, you know, the universal skills of, um, I love playing music and drumming, you know, I've studied a lot with African teachers spent many years of my life, you know, struggling through the language barrier to , you know, to learn and practice and doing is, you know, in the summer planting a huge garden, you know, with a bunch of like heirloom like old corn varieties, potatoes, all the goodies. And in the fall I do a lot of hunting and, you know, try to get all my food, you know, either grown by my own hand or, you know, foraged or hunted in the woods. So spend a lot of time doing that. Hunting time is definitely my sacred time, you know, I just love sitting in the woods and trying to be invisible and not disturb the life there.

Len Mackey (04:23):

It feels so good to me to, to raise my food and, you know, catch my food and just, you know, pour all the gratitude that I could ever muster into that. And so, you know, becomes that much more nourishing. Uh, I do also kids programs. I have a Little Tracker program and teach kids how to make fire and call turkeys and, you know, track. And, you know, we did a bunch of natural dying and, you know, um, a lot of food preservation, you know, drying food, um, you know, all the different skills that are just closely tied to our sustenance and survival. I also have written a bunch of grants through the arts council every year for a performance series. So this last year I was lucky enough to do a five part series, uh, some theater, physical theater. I wrote a soliloquy to know the destructive force and the creative force as you know, characterized by human behavior and the kind of, you know, two spirits of those forces. And then also drum and dance performance, a community song circle, and actually July 30th at 3:30 will be performing, our group Bomba Ferra, which is the nickname I was given when I was in Africa. And our friend Shimul Zaman will be performing in Ives park as part of the fantasy fair at 3:30.

Liz Hart (06:18):

Although this is being published and potentially listened to far after July 30th, 2022, if you're interested in Len's programs or events, see the links on the main page of this podcast.

Len Mackey (06:30):

So I do a lot of that piecing together a way to make a living and still do what I love . Um, and I was doing a lot of personal training and yoga and fitness classes before COVID.

Liz Hart (06:45):

At this point we lost connection again, and the audio began to lag, but essentially what Len is saying is that when COVID happened, it totally shut everything down. And so his income went down to basically 1/10th of what it was before as he couldn't continue providing those same services. Then he also began to tell me a bit about another project he's been working on his buck skin suit.

Len Mackey (07:08):

The most recent work I've done with the buck skin is, uh, I made a suit, moccasins, pants, and a jacket all camouflaged with natural dyes, you know, Osage orange, saw dust, iron and vinegar, black walnut, indigo. And, uh, it took me about eight years to make <laugh>. Cause I had to hunt all the deer, tan the hides, dye them and then do like the scary part of actually cutting them up and, you know, stitching them together. And the, uh, you know, just came out. I don't know if I spent more time stitching it together or sitting in the woods, waiting for the deer. Oh my God. So many hours. <laugh>.

Liz Hart (07:58):

That's really impressive. That's so cool.

Len Mackey (08:00):

But you know, now it's like, Ugh. Oh, and you know, I just wear it. And what's amazing is it's not good for like down here right now. It's like 90 degrees and almost a hundred percent humidity, but at home, you know, in the summer fall spring, um, it's amazing because you know, the bugs can't bite through it. So it's like, you know, wearing bug spray without having to put any spray on. And it just feels like, oh, just so it's just so soft and beautiful this fabric, you know, it just feels like it was meant to be put next to our skin.

Liz Hart (08:40):

That's so awesome. Obviously you have a pretty impressive repertoire and you have all of these skills. And you mentioned that hunting is kind of your, you know, your sacred time. Would you say that's like one of your favorite things that you're involved in?

Len Mackey (08:54):

Yeah. You know, I think, you know, in a way it's, it's my time to communicate with the earth and just let her guide me and tell me where to go. Because there is a great need to feed myself and my family, my people. And so I find when I just open my heart to her, she leads me right where I need to go to find the deer. And, um, sometimes it feels like, you know, it's magic the way it works, you know, 'cause I feel like she feels my genuine gratitude and appreciation for those creatures and that sustenance and she's very generous and I'm very, very grateful.

Liz Hart (09:42):

That's amazing. I love that. So obviously you're very, you know, close to the earth. Would you say that you have a personal philosophy and if so, what do you think your personal like philosophy would be?

Len Mackey (09:56):

In regards to like life and spirituality?

Liz Hart (10:00):

Yeah, I guess yeah. Life in general spirituality, whatever. However you wanna interpret that question I guess.

Len Mackey (10:08):

Yeah. You know, you don't get that question every day.

Liz Hart (10:15):

Good at answering it though <laugh> <laugh>

Len Mackey (10:18):

No, I feel like, you know, the first thing that's really coming to my mind is, um, being a caretaker, you know, being a caretaker of this planet that we live on and the people around me, you know, I, uh, rent from a woman Isis she's 96 years old. So I moved in with Isis and you know, when I first moved there I was friends with her, but I didn't really have any intention or any idea that I would ultimately become in part her caregiver. I mean, she's so self sufficient, don't get me wrong. Like she's still driving and cooking and doing all that stuff, but you know, help her every way I can, you know, bring in the mail, help her trim the dingleberries off her dogs bum <laugh>

Len Mackey (11:15):

Yeah. Help pull up her trousers, all the things that she needs a hand with, open the canister, you know, take out the garbage, fix the fence, and you know, she, she needs that help, and for me it feels, I feel really blessed to be able to live with a grandma. You know, it makes me feel good to help her, and we help each other. And that's really the philosophy. I think that is closest to home helping the earth. You know, when I hunt the deer, the deer that the earth says here, you know, the young deer or the sick, the old deer, you know, whatever one is meant for me. And if it doesn't feel right

Liz Hart (12:06):

Here, Len goes on to say that if it doesn't feel right, he won't go there. And it feeds his soul to be able to be a caretaker for the earth and for those around him.

Liz Hart (12:16):

That's wonderful. That's I think that's a really good personal philosophy. Especially in this day and age where we've all kind of had to learn to come together and, you know, take care of one another. What do you feel is one of the most valuable services you provide to the community? Um, doesn't have to be, you know, an explicit service, like we might think of, but what do you feel is like the most valuable thing that you do for the North Country? Tricky question, but <laugh>

Len Mackey (12:54):

Yeah, yeah. I suppose the most valuable I can do for the North Country is work with the children and teach them, skills that are vital, but not just teaching them the skills, but reconnecting them with nature. And that this place, you know, the woods, the fields, the streams, the rivers, they all call to us. We often go there to find peace or relaxation or quiet. And so I feel so much that, you know, if I can connect kids to this natural world, you know, then they're gonna grow up with appreciation for Mother Earth . And so they will hopefully pass that to their kids and their kids and their kids. And my hope is that, you know, by sharing with them natural things, you know, just listening to the birds and being like, Hey, that bird is alarming. What do you think is trying to tell us, you know, so getting them to be aware that the creatures around us have value. I feel, you know, aside from teaching kids to connect with nature and develop a deep appreciation, you know, teaching them also to drum and move their bodies is a great thing for them. You know, it helps with the development of their brain, balancing the hemispheres of the brain, you know, developing their proprioception and, and their confidence. To be able to listen to something and then play it back old way of learning

Liz Hart (15:14):

Here, Len talks about how this old way of learning forces us to use our brains and in doing so, it makes us much more well-rounded humans.

Liz Hart (15:26):

How would you describe your perfect day in the North Country?

Len Mackey (15:30):

My perfect day in the North Country? Well, I suppose my perfect day in the North Country is kind of determined by the season in a way. In the summer, you know, I love waking up and working in the garden early and lately, I've been really getting into flint napping and, you know, all that stuff, breaking obsidian and Flint to make stone tools. It's so fun and highly addictive <laugh>, but you know, it's a very healthy addiction, I suppose. So in summertime, you know, doing that or spending time by the river, um, in the fall, I guess it would be waking up at three in the morning and going out into the woods and sitting for hours and hours and, you know, finding some food. In the wintertime, I just love wandering in the woods and tracking animals cuz the world becomes a huge tracking box and there's so many stories written in the snow. I guess in the spring it would be getting up at three in the morning and going out, talking to the turkeys, see if I can't stir them up, bring them in close. My perfect day is definitely like spending some time outside, in this beautiful place.

Liz Hart (16:57):

Unfortunately at this point we lost connection for the final time and I was unable to get the recordings of us, um, finalizing the interview and saying, thank you. But I was able to talk to Len on the phone afterwards. And I would just like to thank, Len Mackey again for joining me and for being so open in this interview. And I would also like to thank all of our listeners for tuning in to our first recorded episode of North Country Voices. Be sure to follow us on Instagram, Facebook, or Twitter, to stay updated on upcoming events and programs. Get up and get outdoors with Nature Up North!